Adriana geeks out with fellow CNCF Ambassador, Nancy Chauhan! Nancy, the founder of Women in Cloud Native, talks about what inspired her to start this group, and how it went from a Discord community to being recognized as an official CNCF group. She also talks about how her interest in sustainability in tech led her to join TAG Environmental Sustainability. She dives into what this group does, and what projects and organizations can do to be more mindful of their environmental impact.
About our guest:
Nancy Chauhan is and Engineer & Developer Advocate at LocalStack. She is a CNCF Ambassador. She the founder of the Women in Cloud Native community to encourage diversity and participation of women in tech. She is also part of the CNCF's TAG Sustainability group, resulting from her interest in sustainability in tech. Off duty she loves to play with her cats and loves traveling, exploring new places, culture, and history.
Find our guest on:
Find us on:
Show notes:
Additional notes:
Transcript:
ADRIANA: Hey, y'all, welcome to Geeking Out, the podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery, DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host, Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada. And geeking out with me today is Nancy Chauhan. Welcome, Nancy!
NANCY: Hey, thank you so much, Adriana. I'm so...I'm super excited for this because I've seen your videos and it's just amazing.
ADRIANA: Oh, my God. I'm so excited to have you here today. And where are you calling from, Nancy?
NANCY: I am from calling from Bangalore, India. It's quite hot here.
ADRIANA: Oh, my God. Yeah, we were just talking...
NANCY: It's very hot.
ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. What was the temperature you were saying earlier?
NANCY: It was...it's 38 degrees Celsius. And that's kind of sad because Bangalore is known for the most, you know, like a place in India which has the most moderate temperature, which never crosses, like, 27 or 28 degrees. So it's kind of sad. I mean, global warming and the...has really hit it. I was just, you know, going through the articles and I was really curious that why is it happening? And the reasons are, like, part of the reason is, like, definitely, like, all the environmental changes which are happening. Yeah.
ADRIANA: Yeah, it's so depressing because, like, even in Toronto, like, we've been having, I mentioned earlier when we were chatting beforehand that, like, our summers have gotten hotter. Our winters are practically non-existent. Like, this winter we got snow, but it was like, it's such a wild temperature fluctuation. So you'll have, like, below zero one day and then the next day it's above zero. So any snow that would have fallen melts. And I think we might have had maybe one week consistently below zero. And, like, that's so weird.
NANCY: That's weird. Definitely. That's weird. And this is something which is really important to be considered about, I mean, this topic. Definitely.
ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. And I definitely want to dig into that more because I think there's some really awesome stuff that we can dig into around that. Before we do that, I'm going to start with some icebreaker/lightning round questions. I say "slash lightning round" because sometimes they go fast, sometimes they don't. So we'll see how it rolls.
NANCY: Let's see.
ADRIANA: Yeah. All right, first question. Are you a lefty or a righty?
NANCY: I am a righty.
ADRIANA: All right. Do you prefer iPhone or Android?
NANCY: I love Android. I mean, iPhone. I don't like it. It just bounds you to so many things. I mean, just the same ecosystem, but...yeah, yeah.
ADRIANA: All right, cool. Next question. Do you prefer Mac, Linux or Windows?
NANCY: Mac/Linux. Yeah.
ADRIANA: All right, favorite programming language?
NANCY: Python, Go? It keeps changing, I guess, but, yeah, that's something which I'm doing. Yeah.
ADRIANA: Awesome. Awesome. Yeah, it's interesting with programming languages as you, like, pick up new ones, you're like, oh, maybe this is my favorite one. Or there's still the old standby that you love no matter what.
NANCY: Yeah. Because that's what your first language was when you started coding. I mean, that's also there.
ADRIANA: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, there's the nostalgia for that. I completely agree. My first language for...people have heard this podcast...they know my first language was BASIC. Yeah. It was like, I think I first touched it in, like, I want to say 1989 or 1990. So it was like in the olden days. Not the oldest olden days, but it is still like. I mean, I don't even know anyone who writes code in BASIC anymore, but, yeah, I feel nostalgic. Yeah. Okay, next question. Do you prefer Dev or Ops?
NANCY: I prefer Dev. I know, it's both. I mean. Yeah.
ADRIANA: And that's...that's a valid answer, too. You like both. Yeah. Next question. Do you like JSON or YAML?
NANCY: That's a good question. I mean, that's...so I'm going to say, JSON, because I've struggled a lot with YAML. I mean, with all those Kubernetes manifests. I struggled my lifetime, so. Yeah, I don't know. That was like the moment you mentioned YAML and that came in my head. Yeah. And I was like...
ADRIANA: Oh, yeah, it's like PTSD. Yeah, it's funny. The...the people who hate YAML, it's like. Yeah, it's...it's...it's from all those times where you had, like, broken YAML files that caused you, like, hours and hours of pain debugging over a space. Yeah, yeah, I feel your pain. Next question. Spaces or tabs?
NANCY: Tabs. Yeah.
ADRIANA: All right, two more questions left. Do you prefer to consume content through video or text?
NANCY: I think text, although I create content around videos, but I prefer to do when it comes to me, I like text more.
ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair enough, fair enough. Yeah. I'm the same way. I do create some video like this, but I'm a text person, even.
NANCY: I like, you know, learning through hands on. That's like the best way. And that's why I like reading as well. I mean, if you have tutorials, that's the best.
ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I'm definitely a hands on learner. I can read everything I want and I'll be like, yeah, I get it. And then you do it and you're like...Yeah. Okay, final question. What is your superpower?
NANCY: Wow. Oh, my God. Did I just, I mean, I just mentioned this word and...okay.
ADRIANA: I know. Like, it's like you're reading my mind.
NANCY: Okay, so, um, so my superpower is that I can do a lot of stuff in one stretch. For example, I can just drive for like 8 hours in a go. And then I can just go to the beach with my friends on like, you know, like just after driving, I can go to the beach with my friends, hang out, and then I can wake up whole night, and then next day also I can do random stuff. So that's, I know, it's like an, it's like exploiting your own body. But then this has like, many a times this has, you know, has been very advantages for me. I mean, like during on calls or maybe, you know, passing my engineering degree. I mean, this superpower has been really, really good for me.
ADRIANA: Yeah. Oh, my God, that's so true. Yeah. Yeah. I keep forgetting like the amount, like on-call aside, you're right that in school wait for long stretches, sometimes pulling all-nighters and...yeah, that's never fun, but that is a good superpower. So basically you have like a seemingly unlimited energy source.
NANCY: Yes. Only for critical things.
ADRIANA: Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. So when, when it's like super important, you're on.
NANCY: Yeah, definitely.
ADRIANA: That's awesome. I love that. All right, well, you've survived the icebreaker/lightning round questions, so, yeah, I think for audience...so first of all, I'm so excited to have gotten to meet you. And we met at KubeCon in Paris in March, and I was so delighted to realize that you were the one who created the CNCF Women group. Can you talk a little bit more about that?
NANCY: Yeah, definitely. So we started the Women in Cloud Native community one year ago. It has been like one year. And the reason why I started this was because I feel like, like the connection between a lot of women is still, because like, there are so many good women out there in different countries and different regions and they're doing amazing work, yet we do not know about them. Somehow this connection is missing because, like, there is so much noise, I mean, there is like so many people out there, so many things happening, that this is something which I feel like lacks because there was this one conference I was in DevOps Days, and then like two people, two women, they came to me and then they asked me that, hey, I just heard your talk. And I realized, oh, you work in this. We really need help in this stuff. And then they...then I realized at that moment, okay, and I just realized that when I was doing my first job, I never realized while working as a DevOps engineer, that engineer there, that I was the only women on the floor. It's just when I left that company, someone just, you know, texted me a very sweet message that, hey, I really love your energy. You are the only women on the floor. And then that's the moment I realized, oh, okay. I mean, that was a very noticeable thing, and that was a part of it. I survived it, and it was somewhere I feel like, you know, we should be in. Be in more touch with other women in tech space and Cloud Native space so that we can inspire each other. We can get inspired from each other's tech journey.
We can also mentor each other in different respects. So that was the main reason of starting the community. And I guess, like, through that community, it was helpful for me as well. I got to know so many women in the community. I got to know about so many things. I remember, like, even the CNCF ambassador program itself, I was unaware of it. And I guess Carol, she. So Carol, she is there. She is also one of the CNFC Ambassadors, and she, you know, put a lot of messages around the release team, around the CNC Ambassador things, and in the Discord channel, which we formed for Women in Cloud Native community. And that's how I also got to know about, okay, there's a release team which exists, and then I quickly applied for it, and a lot of people applied for it, and then I got to know, okay, CNCF Ambassador, I had no clue that what exactly this program is. And that's how I got to know about it. And then there were so many things. I mean, we did a lot of coffee chats with different women, and we had a lot of workshops, and then we started doing a lot of podcast. And that was so helpful, I mean, for other women as well, because, I mean, like, they got to know that, okay, this person exists at the leadership role, and then, you know, they can just go through their journey, and if they're stuck, they can just see their journey. So this whole thing was the idea of creating the Women in Cloud Native Community and, yeah, yeah, that's how it is happening. And there are so many community builders now. I mean, Bhavani Sankita Amoga. I mean, there are so many people who are supporting this community now.
ADRIANA: Yeah, that's so exciting. And I love that you thought of connecting women together because it's, I mean, it seems so obvious when you do it. That's how you know it's a good idea. It's like, oh, yeah, of course. And I...it's been great because I think, like, one of the challenges we still have in our industry is seeing more people who look like us. And, you know, like, I was thinking back even to, like, my own career. Like, I was for the longest time, always prided myself as, like, being one of the few girls in the room, like, ha ha ha with the boys.
And...and then, like, I hit a point in my career. It was when, when I started taking on one of, like, my first leadership roles that I was made painfully aware of the fact that I was a woman. Not...and it was for a negative thing. It was because, like, I had some, like, male colleague who I was, like, I was supervising him, he was undermining me and, and then, and then, like, my manager supported him and not me. And then I'm like, oh, I'm a woman. And it was not a good thing at that point. And it was such a disappointment, disappointing moment in my life. To realize that, like, you know, I'm a woman means I'm different and not like, I'm just like, up until that point in my career, I just thought, like, I'm being treated as an equal and it was never that. I was just made painfully aware at that point. And it was very sad.
NANCY: Yeah. And there are so many things, I mean, which happens, like when I used to go to office, I mean, because you mentioned, and this just reminded me of the similar incident. I mean, there are so many group discussions which eventually naturally happens that women get to left out and there's eventually, you know, the team bonding get...yeah, it's not, I mean, it just affect the team bonding as well. I mean, if, you know, you're not included, if you're not inclusive in the conversations, even in the discussions or maybe over the coffee chats. Coffee which, you know, do during the office things. So I feel like these are very small things, but these become eventually big. I mean, we, it's like who say, I mean, no one notices it and people just don't notice it, but this eventually becomes big and it affects the overall culture of the workplace.
So I guess, like, it's the responsibility of the workplace as well to foster the inclusivity in, I mean, even in their core values since the beginning. So that's how, I mean, that's the only way this can really be not an issue. I mean, we don't have to, you know, think about, like, something like, women or men. I mean, it should be just...
ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. It should be completely seamless. This actually reminds me of a really. It's kind of a funny/sad story that I heard this woman exec tell at one of my jobs. Like, this was several years ago. She was...she was working at whatever company, and...and they were having this big meeting, and it was, like, her and a bunch of dudes, and they took a break. And so during the break, the guys in the meeting decided to continue the conversation in the washroom, and she's like...
NANCY: Exactly.
ADRIANA: And because, like, they went into the washroom to continue the conversation, and she was a woman. She couldn't partake. Well, you know what she did? She walked into the washroom after them.
NANCY: That's ok. That's savage.
ADRIANA: That was, like, the greatest story. She's like, if you're having this conversation, I'm following you right into here. Okay, so.
NANCY: That's so savage.
ADRIANA: I know, right?
NANCY: Yeah. But, yeah.
ADRIANA: ...get her for doing that. Sorry.
NANCY: Yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah, you definitely get my point. And, yeah, I mean, it's good that we are talking about this, because I know, like, so many people just don't know about it. And, like, the savage thing, which you mentioned right now, it's. It's cool. I mean. Yeah, it's definitely cool. Yeah.
ADRIANA: Yeah. But I hope we don't have to keep doing stuff like that. You know? It's like, it was awesome. But also, like, oh, my God, she had to do that. And it was lucky that she, you know, she had the guts to go in, because it's not just anyone who's gonna be like, barge into the men's washroom. So, yeah, yeah. Honestly, like, one of the things that I love about doing my podcast is, like, I want to expose as many ladies in tech to my audience as possible because there's, like, far too many tech podcasts out there that, you know, highlight men. That's nice. There's, like, cool accomplishments, but, like, we ladies, we do some cool stuff. And so I'm...I really like, for me, it's so important to elevate the voices of, like, seriously badass women in tech.
NANCY: That's really great. I mean, that's a really cool thing, Adriana, and I really love that about your podcast.
ADRIANA: Oh, thank you. Yeah, I did, like, a little count the other day, and I think about half my guests so far have been women. Slightly more. Slightly more women. So I'm like, I'm super stoked about that.
NANCY: Yeah. And I did notice that, and that's really cool. I mean, because as you mentioned, like, there are so many podcasts and we just have...I mean, that was also one of the reason that, like, I wanted to have this podcast thing in Women in Cloud Native community as well, because I wanted to mention all those women who are leading open source initiatives in the Cloud Native and in every area. I mean, like, whether it's like, the product management, whether it's, like, community or it's like, tech, or it's like, leading any, any tag and etcetera. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
ADRIANA: Cool. Now, from, since starting Women in Cloud Native, what was the most kind of pleasant surprise that you've had from, from this whole experience so far?
NANCY: I mean...pleasant surprise?
ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. Thing that you didn't expect that you're like, oh, my God, this is amazing.
NANCY: Uh huh, uh huh. Okay, okay. Yeah. I think, like, one of the most amazing thing was, like, I never expected that this is going to be a place where even I got to, I get to know about opportunities and other people as well, because, like, other women did get to know about opportunities, whether it's about the conferences, whether it's about, like, attending those conferences, or whether it's about participating in different TAGs. I mean, that was really surprising to me because I felt like this information is spread out all over the social media and Internet still. It was surprising for me that somehow it was all over there, but somehow it just was in that discord group or slack group, and people got to know different things. That was really, I was really happy with that. That. Okay. It's being helpful for a lot of people. Yeah. And also, like, the surprising part. Yeah. With this, I also remember the coffee chats. I mean, those coffee chats had been very pretty helpful. I mean, a safe space where people discussed about negotiations.
I mean, like, how can they negotiate better in their companies or maybe moving to the next job role. I mean, things like that, those discussions which are generally, I mean, not being people are like, people prefer to do it in safe place sometimes. So even creating that safe space. So that was something like a pleasant surprise which happened, which I've observed. Yeah.
ADRIANA: Well, that's so cool. Yeah. And, you know, like, speaking of negotiations, that is, I think one of the hardest things for women to do, like, because, you know, like, you hear all these stories of, like, men getting, like, all these, like, extra perks when they, when they sign on for a new job, and women are like, okay. Yay. I love the salary you're giving me. And so to have a place where, like, you can talk to other women about how they accomplished, like, so that they got exactly what they got and to prove to other women that, yes, it's possible to negotiate and get your way.
NANCY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Imposter syndrome. I think a lot of women have imposter syndrome. Even I fight that a lot of times. I mean, a lot of people in general have imposter syndrome, but I've seen that more because we don't have many examples, I think. So we really don't know what's happening. But I guess, like, we, if we talk to more women about their experience, we will definitely get to know that. How is it happening? But, yeah, like I did, the best thing would be that we never require this. I mean, the culture and the place is indifferent to everyone. Like, it's, it's just inclusive and. Yeah, that would be great.
ADRIANA: I totally agree. Yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead.
NANCY: No, I mean, I was just asking you that. Do you have example of, does this remind you of any example where you felt the most inclusive? And it could be anything. I mean, where you feel that environment was very inclusive.
ADRIANA: You know, my current team, I feel, is pretty inclusive. And it's because, like, we're a small team now where there's only three of us developer advocates at my company, and two of us are girls. And honestly, like, this is the highest ratio of, like, girls to guys on a team I've ever worked on before. And for me, that has made such a huge difference. Like, because I feel, I don't know, like, you know, you met Anna, my, she's my...my coworker/work wife. And, yeah, it's just, like, super nice to have, like, a fellow lady in tech who, you know, has...has gone through stuff, has been in the industry for a while, and we can...we can relate because I've also had, like, such very negative experiences with women before. Like, I have to admit that most of my women bosses have been terrible. My current boss is a woman and I love her. And I'm like, oh, my God, thank God I have a good woman boss because I, in the past, like, all of my women bosses have been awful and so disappointing and, like, just didn't end up supporting me. And I think that was even more disappointing than having a man boss not support me.
NANCY: Yeah, yeah, I know. I mean, this reminds me of one of my job, which I would not like to present, but, yeah, I mean, I had a similar incident, and I was like, I was shocked. I mean, I was, because I, like, this was like, the HR who did that to me and I was. There was this incident and I expected that I would get a fair support, but instead they prefer to support a lead because he was, like, critical asset at that moment. And I was a junior engineer and I felt awkward, awful, and I never expected that this could happen, but, yeah.
ADRIANA: But, yeah, yeah, I've had similar experiences. I complained to HR about some shady shit with the manager once, and they were extremely dismissive. And I left the call in tears thinking that I had done something wrong. How? How? Like, I did not feel supported at all. I ended up leaving the company because I'm like, I can't be in a place where I feel like this.
NANCY: Yeah, yeah, I did the same. And that's very sad. I hope this changes. I mean, it's, it's too sad.
ADRIANA: Yeah, I completely agree. But it, you know, like, the fact that, you know, like, you're Women in Cloud Native group, you have a safe space for people to, to talk about these things so important so that you can, I don't know, it gives you, like, a little boost of confidence, right? Whenever you're feeling down, you can, like, go and, like, share your story and, like, it's okay. Like, you know, it's not going to make the problem go away, but you can at least feel better and work towards, like, improving the situation by having these discussions.
NANCY: Yeah. I mean, even now, talking about this similar incident which we both had, I mean, I just, because, like, throughout these years, like, for two, three years, I felt that, okay, this is one off incident and I was living in that space, but then now I feel sad and I don't know, I just have this mixed feelings about this, that this is happening at so many places and it's kind of sad, but, yeah, it's good that we brought this up. And I guess, like, a lot of people will be hearing this and they know that this exists, so. Yeah, that's a good thing.
ADRIANA: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. We need to elevate these discussions and, you know, also as far as elevating, like, you know, diversity issues, I've got, I think by the time this airs, it will have already passed. But in next week, I'm going to be in this conference in Toronto called KubeHuddle, and we're doing a DEI panel where we get to share, like, you know, stories from, from the trenches, from a panel of ladies. And I think the thing that makes me super excited is that the conference organizer Marino, he put our panel as the keynote for the conference, which, like, it just, like, it warms my heart, because we have to bring attention to these matters because, you know, DEI has kind of become an afterthought in many organizations because. Oh, well, it's whatever. It's not important. Oh, these, like, complaining women, like: equality, equality, and it's like...no, because, like, it's still a thing. Because women aren't being treated fairly. They're getting undermined by whatever. I mean, I still get mansplained.
NANCY: Yeah, yeah, I agree. And I'm pretty sure that nobody knows about these things. I mean, it's not even out there.
ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. It's, like, fallen out of fashion to talk about it.
NANCY: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, people. People must be unaware of it. Okay. These things even happen, I mean, because no one is talking about it. So it's really great. And I'm super excited for this panel. I hope to get. Get to see this on YouTube.
ADRIANA: Yeah, I think they're recording the sessions, the main sessions for KubeHuddle. So I think it will show up on YouTube, so...yeah. Yeah.
NANCY: Cool.
ADRIANA: Cool. And then final question before we. We shift gears, because correct me if I'm wrong, but when you started the Women in Cloud Native group, that was not officially, like, a CNCF group, and now, and I guess, as of, like, last year, was. Is that correct?
NANCY: Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah. I'm sorry, what was the question?
ADRIANA: How did that come about?
NANCY: Yeah, yeah, that's a...I mean, that's a very good question. I mean, I guess, like, we just started. I mean, we had no intention. I mean, I just wanted to start this Discord group where a lot of women can connect with each other. That's all. I mean, where we can discuss about different topics. It could be debugging, on-calls or maybe negotiations or anything like that. And we started this Discord group, but then I realized. I mean, we realized, and with the support of Katie, who is leading the Ambassador program, I mean, we realized that it would be really nice if we can be integrated with Cloud Native so that we can reach out to more women, because it's, like, one of the most active, Slack group. And I guess we got to reach, uh, to...because, like, I tried...we tried that it can happen through social media, but still, I feel like it was not reaching out, uh, to more women in different regions somehow. I mean, I cannot trust the algorithms when, uh, especially when Elon Musk has taken over Twitter.
I can just cannot. I just can't trust the algorithms that it's going to reach to people. But, yeah, I mean, being a part of, I mean, CNCF officially, I mean, over the community page, it really helped to reach out to a lot of people. So that was really helpful. And I also wanted to do this. I mean, I also wanted to pitch this that we have mentorship and mentee. Mentor and mentee program sort of thing, but I guess we already have a lot of LFX. Mentee mentor mentee program. I still need to discuss this, but, yeah, this is something which I feel we should have, and it could be really helpful. Yeah, but let's.
ADRIANA: Yeah, I love that so much because I have found in my life, like, I have not had too many women mentors in my life, and I think it would be so nice to have a place where that's easily accessible because I think also for mentorship programs, like, a lot of us tend to be really shy about asking somebody to be a mentor. And I know, like, it's just, you know, like, sometimes it's someone you look up to and you're like, oh, I'm so scared of, like, talking to them. And even though it's like, yeah, they're just...they're a human just like you and me. But it's still, like, overwhelming and scary and having a safe space again, where, like, these kinds of requests or these...these, like, bringing...bringing these people together, mentor and mentee becomes, like, less of a chore I think is so valuable to the community.
NANCY: I totally agree with what you mentioned. Sometimes you're like, you have this imposter syndrome, and you don't reach out to that people. I mean, that happened with me as well. It was. I was lucky that. That people. That person reached out to me instead. Oh, my God. Like, I was like, what? And I was...I never expected. I was having all these. I was like, I'm, in general overthinker. So...yeah, so I overthink a lot, and I was overthinking a lot, and then that person reached out to me and I was shook. I was shocked. I mean, okay, this is something which I wanted, and, okay, it finally happened, and that actually opened a lot of doors to opportunity. I mean, so I totally agree with you.
I mean, this sort of program can really help. I mean, because sometimes people are afraid to reach out and then they just don't know what they're missing. Like, the full room of opportunities or discussions or. Yeah, yeah, definitely in...in that. Maybe I'll work on this. Adriana, we can...I will also get in touch with you to maybe get it reviewed or maybe become a mentor. That would be so...
ADRIANA: I would love that.
NANCY: Yeah. Awesome.
ADRIANA: Yeah, definitely. Count me in. I would love to participate in that. Even if it doesn't become like a formalized program. We can make an informal thing, whatever we can do to help elevate the community. That's so great. That's so great. Now switching gears a bit, because there's the other thing that I wanted to discuss with you, which is so cool that you're doing. You are working in sustainability in tech, so why don't you talk a little bit about that?
NANCY: Yeah, so that's. This thing is related to, I mean, like when I. So basically when I studied, I mean, my bachelor's, I always wanted to do environmental engineering. And for some reason I didn't end up taking it because maybe I, maybe the courses or the universities were not that much accessible to me at that point. I mean, back then, and I didn't end up taking it, but then somewhere I always wanted to contribute in this. And then I came across TAG Environment Sustainability in Cloud Native. That pretty much aligns with whatever I'm doing and if I can make an impact there, that's really good. So we have this TAG Environment Sustainability in CNCF, which basically focuses on sustainability and tech.
This is something which started, I guess, like one year ago, I mean, like more than one year ago, but it's pretty new. And there are so many people out there who are doing great work. I mean, there are so many open source projects like Kepler and many more which are there to bring sustainability in tech. So, yeah, so this group, this initiative, this TAG has a lot of parts to it. I mean, there is, there is the green reviews. Comms is mostly related to the communication and advocating because obviously that's also important if we advocate about it and reaches out to people that something like this exists. I mean, we should be concerned about sustainability in tech. And then we have green reviews, which is being led by Nikki.
And this is more about, I mean, all the release cycles. Like whenever the project is going through the release cycles, the green reviews is responsible for reviewing the carbon footprint using various tools and just suggesting them, you know, suggestions, giving them suggestions that how can we reduce these carbon footprints? So that is something very cool. I still have to explore that area more in depth, but I want to talk about Cloud Native Sustainability Week, which happened for the first time last year in October. And a lot of countries participated in that. Like in the second week of October, there were like so many countries which participated in it, so many organizers who hosted the meetup around sustainability topic, and there were so many discussions around this topic. So that was a great initiative to have that all together. I mean, I led the India Chap...India thing. I mean, where we had in Bangalore mini conference sort of thing.
We had amazing topics by Red Hat and different people who have, I mean, who have their own startups in this area who are measuring all the sustainability footprints and suggesting different companies how to improve it. So, I mean, that was a good, good point, good start to basically get to know about the tech and get to know about things, how to basically convince your team to adopt it. So it was a great first start. And this year I'm going to, I'm leading this initiative for this year, the TAG Environment Sustainability, in which, like, again, I mean, different countries can come together, host the meetups and have different discussions around this topic. Yeah.
ADRIANA: That's so cool.
NANCY: Yeah.
ADRIANA: Wow. And so what do you think has been the most eye-opening thing about, you know, since you started working with this group?
NANCY: Yeah, so that's a very good question. I mean, I think, like, when I've started working on this, I just realized that, I mean, this is, on my personal level observation, not the TAG Environment Sustainability, but because I got involved into this. So once you get involved into some tech or something, you just keep thinking about it, right? It's like, and then I just observed in a lot of meetups and a lot of things. I just feel that so, I mean, many people care so less about this topic. I mean, this is very alarming because this is very sad because so many things are already happening. I mean, as we discussed initially, I mean, the weather changes, that's so evident. And even one state, I mean, Jakarta, I guess, like they are shifting their whole state to another place because it's going to submerge in ocean in few years.
So they're shifting their whole capital. I mean, it just feels sad that so many things are already happening. People are experiencing it. I mean, as you mentioned about Canada and I mentioned about Bangalore, I mean, this is sad that people are not taking this into account. And when I started discussing this with a lot of people who actually care about it, then I got to know that, I mean, if I still need to read a lot, and there is so much to read about it. I mean, all those, the tech which we do and the data centers and they are creating, I mean, they are emitting a lot of carbon footprints, which is a huge number. And it is, it will increase over the years. I mean, for sure.
I mean, there was this number, I'm forgetting the number, but I guess it is around 12%. Maybe I can, you know, give you the blog reference which you can paste because I don't want to split out some, you know, spit out random numbers, but it's a significant number which is going to increase. And we are responsible for that significant number as software developers because we are related to data centers, we are related to writing the code and using all the cloud, deploying our code to the cloud. So we are somehow responsible for this. I mean, we are a part of it, but no one is taking this into account. This pretty much sounds to me like security, to be honest. I mean, there was this one point when people didn't care about security, and then it started hitting their business and people's privacy, and now people are super, you know, caring about it. I'm just wondering when people are going to take this into account because this is also super critical.
ADRIANA: So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's a really good point. And, you know, you hit it spot on when, you know, like, we work in an industry that by definition is not exactly environmentally friendly just for...because of the nature of what we do. And, like, it makes me feel incredibly guilty because, like, since I was a kid, I was, like, worried about the environment. You know, like, I, I had, like, environment clubs in my high school and stuff. Like, and, and yet I'm in an, in an industry that, you know, like, the sheer fact that we've got these servers that we're running or even if, like, you know, work working on my laptop plugged into the wall, I'm consuming energy, that sort of thing is, is contributing to, you know, to, like, it has an environmental impact. And so I think having, having a group like this to raise people's awareness so that it's, you know, people don't treat it as, like this stuff's gonna last forever. What I do now doesn't matter. It does matter. I mean, even, even on the last, you know, I think 15 years or so, I've seen just the climate has changed right before our eyes. And it's, it's like super, super freaky, you know, and it starts out as a subtle change at first, and then, and then you see, like, these sort of extreme other things and you're like, oh, my God, how did we let it get to this?
NANCY: Right, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, like, that's, that's something concerning. And that is the reason that I've started reading a lot of things around this. I mean, you know, how can we stop this? And basically, I mean, there are so many white papers out there. I mean, even on the TAG Environment Sustainability website, which maybe I can give you the link later. White papers, which, I mean, a lot of people are working on it.
I mean, in the TAG Environment itself, the white papers and the research papers. So I guess, I mean, at least the starting point could be that maybe we read about these facts and they figure out that how can we make a difference? And also there was this one very good point which was raised in one of the TAG meetings that which I really want that we do this year, that, I mean, one is like knowledge that this is happening. But the second part is how do you convince yourself team or how do you convince your management to follow this? Because this is not something, I mean, this is not something directly affecting their business. I mean, just like I mentioned about security when it started affecting the business and people's privacy, then people started caring about it. So, so basically, how do you convince your management about this topic? That's also crucial.
ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I completely agree. Now I wanted to just go back to one thing that you had mentioned earlier, which you had mentioned the Kepler project. Are you able to just provide a little bit more info on that?
NANCY: Yeah, so, okay, let me just see. I mean, so basically we have this Kepler project which is, I think which is also a part of Green Software Foundation. So this is something which basically provide insights to your Kubernetes cluster. I mean the carbon footprints of your Kubernetes cluster. So this is something which we can integrate and it's open source. This is something which we can integrate into our projects to have a look. So this is something around the Kepler project which is there. And we have like more projects around this which we can adopt in our pipeline or maybe for awareness we can at least attend the green review meetings. Or maybe we can just go through the website itself to get to know what all exist in this space. Yeah.
ADRIANA: Cool, cool. And you mentioned green review meetings. What exactly is a green review meeting?
NANCY: Yeah, so green reviews meeting. I mean, so in this, like, there are different release cycles in the CNCF project ecosystem itself. And we basically do the reviews, I mean, they do the reviews of how much carbon footprints they are producing and then you provide the suggestions that how can you basically decrease that. So this is, I think the whole, this is the whole aim of that green review meetings and yeah, I guess like these are kind of very useful because you get to know that what's happening and how can you mitigate it? Yeah, so. And also, like, if you want to...
ADRIANA: Oh, sorry, go ahead.
NANCY: I think there's an Internet lag.
ADRIANA: Yeah.
NANCY: I just wanted to mention that if you want to be a part of this meeting, I mean, we can. I mean, we can go to the website and we can just have this. I mean, it has the whole schedule, the calendar, links and whole schedule, and then we can just hop into that and listen to what's happening. Yeah.
ADRIANA: That's so awesome. And I was going to ask, so are green review meetings done for each one of the CNCF projects, then?
NANCY: That is something...to be honest, I'm not sure because I'm not deep. Like, I'm not much involved in the green review meeting as of now. This is something which I'm unaware of. But, yeah, I think I'll have to dig more into this. But, yeah, we can definitely ask this in the Slack group for sure.
ADRIANA: Cool. That's awesome. That's awesome. I love the idea of having these green review meetings and baking them into basically your SDLC, right? In much the same way that you said, like, security was an afterthought until it became a real problem. And now it's definitely more prevalent in the SDLC. Maybe not necessarily where it ought to be, but it's definitely, like, part of the conversation. And so having green review meetings puts, like, environmental concerns into the conversation so that. So that organizations can be more mindful than of like, their environmental impact, which is very. Yeah, that's awesome. Cool. Well, we are coming up on time, but before we wrap up, I was wondering if you have any, like, parting words or words of wisdom or hot takes for our audience.
NANCY: Yeah, so I think. I really love the podcast. So thank you so much, Adriana. I mean, for this podcast. Yeah, I think, like, there is one thing which I wanted to mention, like, through your podcast, I mean, because I'm leading this initiative for sustainability week. I mean, if you. I mean, to be honest, even I'm learning out the things, but my intention is to at least know about these issues and trying to figure out that, how to fix it. So even if you have the similar intention, maybe just feel free to host the meetup in your region and let us know. There is this open issue on GitHub, which maybe I can give you the link and you can paste. So, yeah, if you are interested to participate or maybe host the meetup. That would be really awesome. Yeah, that would be super awesome. So we are still yet to define the exact dates and month, but probably it's going to happen around October. So yeah, if you have interest. So please feel free to comment on the issue, which I will give.
ADRIANA: Yeah, awesome. Yeah. So we'll include that as part of the show notes. And the CNCF Slack group is called TAG...?
NANCY: Yeah, TAG Environment Sustainability.
ADRIANA: Yeah, TAG Environment Sustainability.
NANCY: Right.
ADRIANA: Yeah. And the women's group is called CNCF Women.
NANCY: Yes. Yes. Yeah, I'm going to present the link as well for that. I mean, we have this whole YouTube channels and also for the women, I mean, Women in Cloud Native. I mean, if you're interested to, I mean, I'm going to put out the form, Google form. And if you're interested to come to the podcast, share your journey, or maybe share, or maybe conduct a workshop around any technical topic you wish to do that you can let us know. So I'll share the Google form as well. Yeah.
ADRIANA: Amazing. This is so great. Well, thank you Nancy, so much for geeking out with me today. Y'all don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check out the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media. Until next time...
NANCY: Peace out and geek out.
ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingout.
ADRIANA: Hey, y'all, welcome to Geeking Out, the podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery, DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host, Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada. And geeking out with me today is Nancy Chauhan. Welcome, Nancy!
NANCY: Hey, thank you so much, Adriana. I'm so...I'm super excited for this because I've seen your videos and it's just amazing.
ADRIANA: Oh, my God. I'm so excited to have you here today. And where are you calling from, Nancy?
NANCY: I am from calling from Bangalore, India. It's quite hot here.
ADRIANA: Oh, my God. Yeah, we were just talking...
NANCY: It's very hot.
ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. What was the temperature you were saying earlier?
NANCY: It was...it's 38 degrees Celsius. And that's kind of sad because Bangalore is known for the most, you know, like a place in India which has the most moderate temperature, which never crosses, like, 27 or 28 degrees. So it's kind of sad. I mean, global warming and the...has really hit it. I was just, you know, going through the articles and I was really curious that why is it happening? And the reasons are, like, part of the reason is, like, definitely, like, all the environmental changes which are happening. Yeah.
ADRIANA: Yeah, it's so depressing because, like, even in Toronto, like, we've been having, I mentioned earlier when we were chatting beforehand that, like, our summers have gotten hotter. Our winters are practically non-existent. Like, this winter we got snow, but it was like, it's such a wild temperature fluctuation. So you'll have, like, below zero one day and then the next day it's above zero. So any snow that would have fallen melts. And I think we might have had maybe one week consistently below zero. And, like, that's so weird.
NANCY: That's weird. Definitely. That's weird. And this is something which is really important to be considered about, I mean, this topic. Definitely.
ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. And I definitely want to dig into that more because I think there's some really awesome stuff that we can dig into around that. Before we do that, I'm going to start with some icebreaker/lightning round questions. I say "slash lightning round" because sometimes they go fast, sometimes they don't. So we'll see how it rolls.
NANCY: Let's see.
ADRIANA: Yeah. All right, first question. Are you a lefty or a righty?
NANCY: I am a righty.
ADRIANA: All right. Do you prefer iPhone or Android?
NANCY: I love Android. I mean, iPhone. I don't like it. It just bounds you to so many things. I mean, just the same ecosystem, but...yeah, yeah.
ADRIANA: All right, cool. Next question. Do you prefer Mac, Linux or Windows?
NANCY: Mac/Linux. Yeah.
ADRIANA: All right, favorite programming language?
NANCY: Python, Go? It keeps changing, I guess, but, yeah, that's something which I'm doing. Yeah.
ADRIANA: Awesome. Awesome. Yeah, it's interesting with programming languages as you, like, pick up new ones, you're like, oh, maybe this is my favorite one. Or there's still the old standby that you love no matter what.
NANCY: Yeah. Because that's what your first language was when you started coding. I mean, that's also there.
ADRIANA: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, there's the nostalgia for that. I completely agree. My first language for...people have heard this podcast...they know my first language was BASIC. Yeah. It was like, I think I first touched it in, like, I want to say 1989 or 1990. So it was like in the olden days. Not the oldest olden days, but it is still like. I mean, I don't even know anyone who writes code in BASIC anymore, but, yeah, I feel nostalgic. Yeah. Okay, next question. Do you prefer Dev or Ops?
NANCY: I prefer Dev. I know, it's both. I mean. Yeah.
ADRIANA: And that's...that's a valid answer, too. You like both. Yeah. Next question. Do you like JSON or YAML?
NANCY: That's a good question. I mean, that's...so I'm going to say, JSON, because I've struggled a lot with YAML. I mean, with all those Kubernetes manifests. I struggled my lifetime, so. Yeah, I don't know. That was like the moment you mentioned YAML and that came in my head. Yeah. And I was like...
ADRIANA: Oh, yeah, it's like PTSD. Yeah, it's funny. The...the people who hate YAML, it's like. Yeah, it's...it's...it's from all those times where you had, like, broken YAML files that caused you, like, hours and hours of pain debugging over a space. Yeah, yeah, I feel your pain. Next question. Spaces or tabs?
NANCY: Tabs. Yeah.
ADRIANA: All right, two more questions left. Do you prefer to consume content through video or text?
NANCY: I think text, although I create content around videos, but I prefer to do when it comes to me, I like text more.
ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair enough, fair enough. Yeah. I'm the same way. I do create some video like this, but I'm a text person, even.
NANCY: I like, you know, learning through hands on. That's like the best way. And that's why I like reading as well. I mean, if you have tutorials, that's the best.
ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I'm definitely a hands on learner. I can read everything I want and I'll be like, yeah, I get it. And then you do it and you're like...Yeah. Okay, final question. What is your superpower?
NANCY: Wow. Oh, my God. Did I just, I mean, I just mentioned this word and...okay.
ADRIANA: I know. Like, it's like you're reading my mind.
NANCY: Okay, so, um, so my superpower is that I can do a lot of stuff in one stretch. For example, I can just drive for like 8 hours in a go. And then I can just go to the beach with my friends on like, you know, like just after driving, I can go to the beach with my friends, hang out, and then I can wake up whole night, and then next day also I can do random stuff. So that's, I know, it's like an, it's like exploiting your own body. But then this has like, many a times this has, you know, has been very advantages for me. I mean, like during on calls or maybe, you know, passing my engineering degree. I mean, this superpower has been really, really good for me.
ADRIANA: Yeah. Oh, my God, that's so true. Yeah. Yeah. I keep forgetting like the amount, like on-call aside, you're right that in school wait for long stretches, sometimes pulling all-nighters and...yeah, that's never fun, but that is a good superpower. So basically you have like a seemingly unlimited energy source.
NANCY: Yes. Only for critical things.
ADRIANA: Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. So when, when it's like super important, you're on.
NANCY: Yeah, definitely.
ADRIANA: That's awesome. I love that. All right, well, you've survived the icebreaker/lightning round questions, so, yeah, I think for audience...so first of all, I'm so excited to have gotten to meet you. And we met at KubeCon in Paris in March, and I was so delighted to realize that you were the one who created the CNCF Women group. Can you talk a little bit more about that?
NANCY: Yeah, definitely. So we started the Women in Cloud Native community one year ago. It has been like one year. And the reason why I started this was because I feel like, like the connection between a lot of women is still, because like, there are so many good women out there in different countries and different regions and they're doing amazing work, yet we do not know about them. Somehow this connection is missing because, like, there is so much noise, I mean, there is like so many people out there, so many things happening, that this is something which I feel like lacks because there was this one conference I was in DevOps Days, and then like two people, two women, they came to me and then they asked me that, hey, I just heard your talk. And I realized, oh, you work in this. We really need help in this stuff. And then they...then I realized at that moment, okay, and I just realized that when I was doing my first job, I never realized while working as a DevOps engineer, that engineer there, that I was the only women on the floor. It's just when I left that company, someone just, you know, texted me a very sweet message that, hey, I really love your energy. You are the only women on the floor. And then that's the moment I realized, oh, okay. I mean, that was a very noticeable thing, and that was a part of it. I survived it, and it was somewhere I feel like, you know, we should be in. Be in more touch with other women in tech space and Cloud Native space so that we can inspire each other. We can get inspired from each other's tech journey.
We can also mentor each other in different respects. So that was the main reason of starting the community. And I guess, like, through that community, it was helpful for me as well. I got to know so many women in the community. I got to know about so many things. I remember, like, even the CNCF ambassador program itself, I was unaware of it. And I guess Carol, she. So Carol, she is there. She is also one of the CNFC Ambassadors, and she, you know, put a lot of messages around the release team, around the CNC Ambassador things, and in the Discord channel, which we formed for Women in Cloud Native community. And that's how I also got to know about, okay, there's a release team which exists, and then I quickly applied for it, and a lot of people applied for it, and then I got to know, okay, CNCF Ambassador, I had no clue that what exactly this program is. And that's how I got to know about it. And then there were so many things. I mean, we did a lot of coffee chats with different women, and we had a lot of workshops, and then we started doing a lot of podcast. And that was so helpful, I mean, for other women as well, because, I mean, like, they got to know that, okay, this person exists at the leadership role, and then, you know, they can just go through their journey, and if they're stuck, they can just see their journey. So this whole thing was the idea of creating the Women in Cloud Native Community and, yeah, yeah, that's how it is happening. And there are so many community builders now. I mean, Bhavani Sankita Amoga. I mean, there are so many people who are supporting this community now.
ADRIANA: Yeah, that's so exciting. And I love that you thought of connecting women together because it's, I mean, it seems so obvious when you do it. That's how you know it's a good idea. It's like, oh, yeah, of course. And I...it's been great because I think, like, one of the challenges we still have in our industry is seeing more people who look like us. And, you know, like, I was thinking back even to, like, my own career. Like, I was for the longest time, always prided myself as, like, being one of the few girls in the room, like, ha ha ha with the boys.
And...and then, like, I hit a point in my career. It was when, when I started taking on one of, like, my first leadership roles that I was made painfully aware of the fact that I was a woman. Not...and it was for a negative thing. It was because, like, I had some, like, male colleague who I was, like, I was supervising him, he was undermining me and, and then, and then, like, my manager supported him and not me. And then I'm like, oh, I'm a woman. And it was not a good thing at that point. And it was such a disappointment, disappointing moment in my life. To realize that, like, you know, I'm a woman means I'm different and not like, I'm just like, up until that point in my career, I just thought, like, I'm being treated as an equal and it was never that. I was just made painfully aware at that point. And it was very sad.
NANCY: Yeah. And there are so many things, I mean, which happens, like when I used to go to office, I mean, because you mentioned, and this just reminded me of the similar incident. I mean, there are so many group discussions which eventually naturally happens that women get to left out and there's eventually, you know, the team bonding get...yeah, it's not, I mean, it just affect the team bonding as well. I mean, if, you know, you're not included, if you're not inclusive in the conversations, even in the discussions or maybe over the coffee chats. Coffee which, you know, do during the office things. So I feel like these are very small things, but these become eventually big. I mean, we, it's like who say, I mean, no one notices it and people just don't notice it, but this eventually becomes big and it affects the overall culture of the workplace.
So I guess, like, it's the responsibility of the workplace as well to foster the inclusivity in, I mean, even in their core values since the beginning. So that's how, I mean, that's the only way this can really be not an issue. I mean, we don't have to, you know, think about, like, something like, women or men. I mean, it should be just...
ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. It should be completely seamless. This actually reminds me of a really. It's kind of a funny/sad story that I heard this woman exec tell at one of my jobs. Like, this was several years ago. She was...she was working at whatever company, and...and they were having this big meeting, and it was, like, her and a bunch of dudes, and they took a break. And so during the break, the guys in the meeting decided to continue the conversation in the washroom, and she's like...
NANCY: Exactly.
ADRIANA: And because, like, they went into the washroom to continue the conversation, and she was a woman. She couldn't partake. Well, you know what she did? She walked into the washroom after them.
NANCY: That's ok. That's savage.
ADRIANA: That was, like, the greatest story. She's like, if you're having this conversation, I'm following you right into here. Okay, so.
NANCY: That's so savage.
ADRIANA: I know, right?
NANCY: Yeah. But, yeah.
ADRIANA: ...get her for doing that. Sorry.
NANCY: Yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah, you definitely get my point. And, yeah, I mean, it's good that we are talking about this, because I know, like, so many people just don't know about it. And, like, the savage thing, which you mentioned right now, it's. It's cool. I mean. Yeah, it's definitely cool. Yeah.
ADRIANA: Yeah. But I hope we don't have to keep doing stuff like that. You know? It's like, it was awesome. But also, like, oh, my God, she had to do that. And it was lucky that she, you know, she had the guts to go in, because it's not just anyone who's gonna be like, barge into the men's washroom. So, yeah, yeah. Honestly, like, one of the things that I love about doing my podcast is, like, I want to expose as many ladies in tech to my audience as possible because there's, like, far too many tech podcasts out there that, you know, highlight men. That's nice. There's, like, cool accomplishments, but, like, we ladies, we do some cool stuff. And so I'm...I really like, for me, it's so important to elevate the voices of, like, seriously badass women in tech.
NANCY: That's really great. I mean, that's a really cool thing, Adriana, and I really love that about your podcast.
ADRIANA: Oh, thank you. Yeah, I did, like, a little count the other day, and I think about half my guests so far have been women. Slightly more. Slightly more women. So I'm like, I'm super stoked about that.
NANCY: Yeah. And I did notice that, and that's really cool. I mean, because as you mentioned, like, there are so many podcasts and we just have...I mean, that was also one of the reason that, like, I wanted to have this podcast thing in Women in Cloud Native community as well, because I wanted to mention all those women who are leading open source initiatives in the Cloud Native and in every area. I mean, like, whether it's like, the product management, whether it's, like, community or it's like, tech, or it's like, leading any, any tag and etcetera. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
ADRIANA: Cool. Now, from, since starting Women in Cloud Native, what was the most kind of pleasant surprise that you've had from, from this whole experience so far?
NANCY: I mean...pleasant surprise?
ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. Thing that you didn't expect that you're like, oh, my God, this is amazing.
NANCY: Uh huh, uh huh. Okay, okay. Yeah. I think, like, one of the most amazing thing was, like, I never expected that this is going to be a place where even I got to, I get to know about opportunities and other people as well, because, like, other women did get to know about opportunities, whether it's about the conferences, whether it's about, like, attending those conferences, or whether it's about participating in different TAGs. I mean, that was really surprising to me because I felt like this information is spread out all over the social media and Internet still. It was surprising for me that somehow it was all over there, but somehow it just was in that discord group or slack group, and people got to know different things. That was really, I was really happy with that. That. Okay. It's being helpful for a lot of people. Yeah. And also, like, the surprising part. Yeah. With this, I also remember the coffee chats. I mean, those coffee chats had been very pretty helpful. I mean, a safe space where people discussed about negotiations.
I mean, like, how can they negotiate better in their companies or maybe moving to the next job role. I mean, things like that, those discussions which are generally, I mean, not being people are like, people prefer to do it in safe place sometimes. So even creating that safe space. So that was something like a pleasant surprise which happened, which I've observed. Yeah.
ADRIANA: Well, that's so cool. Yeah. And, you know, like, speaking of negotiations, that is, I think one of the hardest things for women to do, like, because, you know, like, you hear all these stories of, like, men getting, like, all these, like, extra perks when they, when they sign on for a new job, and women are like, okay. Yay. I love the salary you're giving me. And so to have a place where, like, you can talk to other women about how they accomplished, like, so that they got exactly what they got and to prove to other women that, yes, it's possible to negotiate and get your way.
NANCY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Imposter syndrome. I think a lot of women have imposter syndrome. Even I fight that a lot of times. I mean, a lot of people in general have imposter syndrome, but I've seen that more because we don't have many examples, I think. So we really don't know what's happening. But I guess, like, we, if we talk to more women about their experience, we will definitely get to know that. How is it happening? But, yeah, like I did, the best thing would be that we never require this. I mean, the culture and the place is indifferent to everyone. Like, it's, it's just inclusive and. Yeah, that would be great.
ADRIANA: I totally agree. Yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead.
NANCY: No, I mean, I was just asking you that. Do you have example of, does this remind you of any example where you felt the most inclusive? And it could be anything. I mean, where you feel that environment was very inclusive.
ADRIANA: You know, my current team, I feel, is pretty inclusive. And it's because, like, we're a small team now where there's only three of us developer advocates at my company, and two of us are girls. And honestly, like, this is the highest ratio of, like, girls to guys on a team I've ever worked on before. And for me, that has made such a huge difference. Like, because I feel, I don't know, like, you know, you met Anna, my, she's my...my coworker/work wife. And, yeah, it's just, like, super nice to have, like, a fellow lady in tech who, you know, has...has gone through stuff, has been in the industry for a while, and we can...we can relate because I've also had, like, such very negative experiences with women before. Like, I have to admit that most of my women bosses have been terrible. My current boss is a woman and I love her. And I'm like, oh, my God, thank God I have a good woman boss because I, in the past, like, all of my women bosses have been awful and so disappointing and, like, just didn't end up supporting me. And I think that was even more disappointing than having a man boss not support me.
NANCY: Yeah, yeah, I know. I mean, this reminds me of one of my job, which I would not like to present, but, yeah, I mean, I had a similar incident, and I was like, I was shocked. I mean, I was, because I, like, this was like, the HR who did that to me and I was. There was this incident and I expected that I would get a fair support, but instead they prefer to support a lead because he was, like, critical asset at that moment. And I was a junior engineer and I felt awkward, awful, and I never expected that this could happen, but, yeah.
ADRIANA: But, yeah, yeah, I've had similar experiences. I complained to HR about some shady shit with the manager once, and they were extremely dismissive. And I left the call in tears thinking that I had done something wrong. How? How? Like, I did not feel supported at all. I ended up leaving the company because I'm like, I can't be in a place where I feel like this.
NANCY: Yeah, yeah, I did the same. And that's very sad. I hope this changes. I mean, it's, it's too sad.
ADRIANA: Yeah, I completely agree. But it, you know, like, the fact that, you know, like, you're Women in Cloud Native group, you have a safe space for people to, to talk about these things so important so that you can, I don't know, it gives you, like, a little boost of confidence, right? Whenever you're feeling down, you can, like, go and, like, share your story and, like, it's okay. Like, you know, it's not going to make the problem go away, but you can at least feel better and work towards, like, improving the situation by having these discussions.
NANCY: Yeah. I mean, even now, talking about this similar incident which we both had, I mean, I just, because, like, throughout these years, like, for two, three years, I felt that, okay, this is one off incident and I was living in that space, but then now I feel sad and I don't know, I just have this mixed feelings about this, that this is happening at so many places and it's kind of sad, but, yeah, it's good that we brought this up. And I guess, like, a lot of people will be hearing this and they know that this exists, so. Yeah, that's a good thing.
ADRIANA: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. We need to elevate these discussions and, you know, also as far as elevating, like, you know, diversity issues, I've got, I think by the time this airs, it will have already passed. But in next week, I'm going to be in this conference in Toronto called KubeHuddle, and we're doing a DEI panel where we get to share, like, you know, stories from, from the trenches, from a panel of ladies. And I think the thing that makes me super excited is that the conference organizer Marino, he put our panel as the keynote for the conference, which, like, it just, like, it warms my heart, because we have to bring attention to these matters because, you know, DEI has kind of become an afterthought in many organizations because. Oh, well, it's whatever. It's not important. Oh, these, like, complaining women, like: equality, equality, and it's like...no, because, like, it's still a thing. Because women aren't being treated fairly. They're getting undermined by whatever. I mean, I still get mansplained.
NANCY: Yeah, yeah, I agree. And I'm pretty sure that nobody knows about these things. I mean, it's not even out there.
ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah. It's, like, fallen out of fashion to talk about it.
NANCY: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, people. People must be unaware of it. Okay. These things even happen, I mean, because no one is talking about it. So it's really great. And I'm super excited for this panel. I hope to get. Get to see this on YouTube.
ADRIANA: Yeah, I think they're recording the sessions, the main sessions for KubeHuddle. So I think it will show up on YouTube, so...yeah. Yeah.
NANCY: Cool.
ADRIANA: Cool. And then final question before we. We shift gears, because correct me if I'm wrong, but when you started the Women in Cloud Native group, that was not officially, like, a CNCF group, and now, and I guess, as of, like, last year, was. Is that correct?
NANCY: Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah. I'm sorry, what was the question?
ADRIANA: How did that come about?
NANCY: Yeah, yeah, that's a...I mean, that's a very good question. I mean, I guess, like, we just started. I mean, we had no intention. I mean, I just wanted to start this Discord group where a lot of women can connect with each other. That's all. I mean, where we can discuss about different topics. It could be debugging, on-calls or maybe negotiations or anything like that. And we started this Discord group, but then I realized. I mean, we realized, and with the support of Katie, who is leading the Ambassador program, I mean, we realized that it would be really nice if we can be integrated with Cloud Native so that we can reach out to more women, because it's, like, one of the most active, Slack group. And I guess we got to reach, uh, to...because, like, I tried...we tried that it can happen through social media, but still, I feel like it was not reaching out, uh, to more women in different regions somehow. I mean, I cannot trust the algorithms when, uh, especially when Elon Musk has taken over Twitter.
I can just cannot. I just can't trust the algorithms that it's going to reach to people. But, yeah, I mean, being a part of, I mean, CNCF officially, I mean, over the community page, it really helped to reach out to a lot of people. So that was really helpful. And I also wanted to do this. I mean, I also wanted to pitch this that we have mentorship and mentee. Mentor and mentee program sort of thing, but I guess we already have a lot of LFX. Mentee mentor mentee program. I still need to discuss this, but, yeah, this is something which I feel we should have, and it could be really helpful. Yeah, but let's.
ADRIANA: Yeah, I love that so much because I have found in my life, like, I have not had too many women mentors in my life, and I think it would be so nice to have a place where that's easily accessible because I think also for mentorship programs, like, a lot of us tend to be really shy about asking somebody to be a mentor. And I know, like, it's just, you know, like, sometimes it's someone you look up to and you're like, oh, I'm so scared of, like, talking to them. And even though it's like, yeah, they're just...they're a human just like you and me. But it's still, like, overwhelming and scary and having a safe space again, where, like, these kinds of requests or these...these, like, bringing...bringing these people together, mentor and mentee becomes, like, less of a chore I think is so valuable to the community.
NANCY: I totally agree with what you mentioned. Sometimes you're like, you have this imposter syndrome, and you don't reach out to that people. I mean, that happened with me as well. It was. I was lucky that. That people. That person reached out to me instead. Oh, my God. Like, I was like, what? And I was...I never expected. I was having all these. I was like, I'm, in general overthinker. So...yeah, so I overthink a lot, and I was overthinking a lot, and then that person reached out to me and I was shook. I was shocked. I mean, okay, this is something which I wanted, and, okay, it finally happened, and that actually opened a lot of doors to opportunity. I mean, so I totally agree with you.
I mean, this sort of program can really help. I mean, because sometimes people are afraid to reach out and then they just don't know what they're missing. Like, the full room of opportunities or discussions or. Yeah, yeah, definitely in...in that. Maybe I'll work on this. Adriana, we can...I will also get in touch with you to maybe get it reviewed or maybe become a mentor. That would be so...
ADRIANA: I would love that.
NANCY: Yeah. Awesome.
ADRIANA: Yeah, definitely. Count me in. I would love to participate in that. Even if it doesn't become like a formalized program. We can make an informal thing, whatever we can do to help elevate the community. That's so great. That's so great. Now switching gears a bit, because there's the other thing that I wanted to discuss with you, which is so cool that you're doing. You are working in sustainability in tech, so why don't you talk a little bit about that?
NANCY: Yeah, so that's. This thing is related to, I mean, like when I. So basically when I studied, I mean, my bachelor's, I always wanted to do environmental engineering. And for some reason I didn't end up taking it because maybe I, maybe the courses or the universities were not that much accessible to me at that point. I mean, back then, and I didn't end up taking it, but then somewhere I always wanted to contribute in this. And then I came across TAG Environment Sustainability in Cloud Native. That pretty much aligns with whatever I'm doing and if I can make an impact there, that's really good. So we have this TAG Environment Sustainability in CNCF, which basically focuses on sustainability and tech.
This is something which started, I guess, like one year ago, I mean, like more than one year ago, but it's pretty new. And there are so many people out there who are doing great work. I mean, there are so many open source projects like Kepler and many more which are there to bring sustainability in tech. So, yeah, so this group, this initiative, this TAG has a lot of parts to it. I mean, there is, there is the green reviews. Comms is mostly related to the communication and advocating because obviously that's also important if we advocate about it and reaches out to people that something like this exists. I mean, we should be concerned about sustainability in tech. And then we have green reviews, which is being led by Nikki.
And this is more about, I mean, all the release cycles. Like whenever the project is going through the release cycles, the green reviews is responsible for reviewing the carbon footprint using various tools and just suggesting them, you know, suggestions, giving them suggestions that how can we reduce these carbon footprints? So that is something very cool. I still have to explore that area more in depth, but I want to talk about Cloud Native Sustainability Week, which happened for the first time last year in October. And a lot of countries participated in that. Like in the second week of October, there were like so many countries which participated in it, so many organizers who hosted the meetup around sustainability topic, and there were so many discussions around this topic. So that was a great initiative to have that all together. I mean, I led the India Chap...India thing. I mean, where we had in Bangalore mini conference sort of thing.
We had amazing topics by Red Hat and different people who have, I mean, who have their own startups in this area who are measuring all the sustainability footprints and suggesting different companies how to improve it. So, I mean, that was a good, good point, good start to basically get to know about the tech and get to know about things, how to basically convince your team to adopt it. So it was a great first start. And this year I'm going to, I'm leading this initiative for this year, the TAG Environment Sustainability, in which, like, again, I mean, different countries can come together, host the meetups and have different discussions around this topic. Yeah.
ADRIANA: That's so cool.
NANCY: Yeah.
ADRIANA: Wow. And so what do you think has been the most eye-opening thing about, you know, since you started working with this group?
NANCY: Yeah, so that's a very good question. I mean, I think, like, when I've started working on this, I just realized that, I mean, this is, on my personal level observation, not the TAG Environment Sustainability, but because I got involved into this. So once you get involved into some tech or something, you just keep thinking about it, right? It's like, and then I just observed in a lot of meetups and a lot of things. I just feel that so, I mean, many people care so less about this topic. I mean, this is very alarming because this is very sad because so many things are already happening. I mean, as we discussed initially, I mean, the weather changes, that's so evident. And even one state, I mean, Jakarta, I guess, like they are shifting their whole state to another place because it's going to submerge in ocean in few years.
So they're shifting their whole capital. I mean, it just feels sad that so many things are already happening. People are experiencing it. I mean, as you mentioned about Canada and I mentioned about Bangalore, I mean, this is sad that people are not taking this into account. And when I started discussing this with a lot of people who actually care about it, then I got to know that, I mean, if I still need to read a lot, and there is so much to read about it. I mean, all those, the tech which we do and the data centers and they are creating, I mean, they are emitting a lot of carbon footprints, which is a huge number. And it is, it will increase over the years. I mean, for sure.
I mean, there was this number, I'm forgetting the number, but I guess it is around 12%. Maybe I can, you know, give you the blog reference which you can paste because I don't want to split out some, you know, spit out random numbers, but it's a significant number which is going to increase. And we are responsible for that significant number as software developers because we are related to data centers, we are related to writing the code and using all the cloud, deploying our code to the cloud. So we are somehow responsible for this. I mean, we are a part of it, but no one is taking this into account. This pretty much sounds to me like security, to be honest. I mean, there was this one point when people didn't care about security, and then it started hitting their business and people's privacy, and now people are super, you know, caring about it. I'm just wondering when people are going to take this into account because this is also super critical.
ADRIANA: So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's a really good point. And, you know, you hit it spot on when, you know, like, we work in an industry that by definition is not exactly environmentally friendly just for...because of the nature of what we do. And, like, it makes me feel incredibly guilty because, like, since I was a kid, I was, like, worried about the environment. You know, like, I, I had, like, environment clubs in my high school and stuff. Like, and, and yet I'm in an, in an industry that, you know, like, the sheer fact that we've got these servers that we're running or even if, like, you know, work working on my laptop plugged into the wall, I'm consuming energy, that sort of thing is, is contributing to, you know, to, like, it has an environmental impact. And so I think having, having a group like this to raise people's awareness so that it's, you know, people don't treat it as, like this stuff's gonna last forever. What I do now doesn't matter. It does matter. I mean, even, even on the last, you know, I think 15 years or so, I've seen just the climate has changed right before our eyes. And it's, it's like super, super freaky, you know, and it starts out as a subtle change at first, and then, and then you see, like, these sort of extreme other things and you're like, oh, my God, how did we let it get to this?
NANCY: Right, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, like, that's, that's something concerning. And that is the reason that I've started reading a lot of things around this. I mean, you know, how can we stop this? And basically, I mean, there are so many white papers out there. I mean, even on the TAG Environment Sustainability website, which maybe I can give you the link later. White papers, which, I mean, a lot of people are working on it.
I mean, in the TAG Environment itself, the white papers and the research papers. So I guess, I mean, at least the starting point could be that maybe we read about these facts and they figure out that how can we make a difference? And also there was this one very good point which was raised in one of the TAG meetings that which I really want that we do this year, that, I mean, one is like knowledge that this is happening. But the second part is how do you convince yourself team or how do you convince your management to follow this? Because this is not something, I mean, this is not something directly affecting their business. I mean, just like I mentioned about security when it started affecting the business and people's privacy, then people started caring about it. So, so basically, how do you convince your management about this topic? That's also crucial.
ADRIANA: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I completely agree. Now I wanted to just go back to one thing that you had mentioned earlier, which you had mentioned the Kepler project. Are you able to just provide a little bit more info on that?
NANCY: Yeah, so, okay, let me just see. I mean, so basically we have this Kepler project which is, I think which is also a part of Green Software Foundation. So this is something which basically provide insights to your Kubernetes cluster. I mean the carbon footprints of your Kubernetes cluster. So this is something which we can integrate and it's open source. This is something which we can integrate into our projects to have a look. So this is something around the Kepler project which is there. And we have like more projects around this which we can adopt in our pipeline or maybe for awareness we can at least attend the green review meetings. Or maybe we can just go through the website itself to get to know what all exist in this space. Yeah.
ADRIANA: Cool, cool. And you mentioned green review meetings. What exactly is a green review meeting?
NANCY: Yeah, so green reviews meeting. I mean, so in this, like, there are different release cycles in the CNCF project ecosystem itself. And we basically do the reviews, I mean, they do the reviews of how much carbon footprints they are producing and then you provide the suggestions that how can you basically decrease that. So this is, I think the whole, this is the whole aim of that green review meetings and yeah, I guess like these are kind of very useful because you get to know that what's happening and how can you mitigate it? Yeah, so. And also, like, if you want to...
ADRIANA: Oh, sorry, go ahead.
NANCY: I think there's an Internet lag.
ADRIANA: Yeah.
NANCY: I just wanted to mention that if you want to be a part of this meeting, I mean, we can. I mean, we can go to the website and we can just have this. I mean, it has the whole schedule, the calendar, links and whole schedule, and then we can just hop into that and listen to what's happening. Yeah.
ADRIANA: That's so awesome. And I was going to ask, so are green review meetings done for each one of the CNCF projects, then?
NANCY: That is something...to be honest, I'm not sure because I'm not deep. Like, I'm not much involved in the green review meeting as of now. This is something which I'm unaware of. But, yeah, I think I'll have to dig more into this. But, yeah, we can definitely ask this in the Slack group for sure.
ADRIANA: Cool. That's awesome. That's awesome. I love the idea of having these green review meetings and baking them into basically your SDLC, right? In much the same way that you said, like, security was an afterthought until it became a real problem. And now it's definitely more prevalent in the SDLC. Maybe not necessarily where it ought to be, but it's definitely, like, part of the conversation. And so having green review meetings puts, like, environmental concerns into the conversation so that. So that organizations can be more mindful than of like, their environmental impact, which is very. Yeah, that's awesome. Cool. Well, we are coming up on time, but before we wrap up, I was wondering if you have any, like, parting words or words of wisdom or hot takes for our audience.
NANCY: Yeah, so I think. I really love the podcast. So thank you so much, Adriana. I mean, for this podcast. Yeah, I think, like, there is one thing which I wanted to mention, like, through your podcast, I mean, because I'm leading this initiative for sustainability week. I mean, if you. I mean, to be honest, even I'm learning out the things, but my intention is to at least know about these issues and trying to figure out that, how to fix it. So even if you have the similar intention, maybe just feel free to host the meetup in your region and let us know. There is this open issue on GitHub, which maybe I can give you the link and you can paste. So, yeah, if you are interested to participate or maybe host the meetup. That would be really awesome. Yeah, that would be super awesome. So we are still yet to define the exact dates and month, but probably it's going to happen around October. So yeah, if you have interest. So please feel free to comment on the issue, which I will give.
ADRIANA: Yeah, awesome. Yeah. So we'll include that as part of the show notes. And the CNCF Slack group is called TAG...?
NANCY: Yeah, TAG Environment Sustainability.
ADRIANA: Yeah, TAG Environment Sustainability.
NANCY: Right.
ADRIANA: Yeah. And the women's group is called CNCF Women.
NANCY: Yes. Yes. Yeah, I'm going to present the link as well for that. I mean, we have this whole YouTube channels and also for the women, I mean, Women in Cloud Native. I mean, if you're interested to, I mean, I'm going to put out the form, Google form. And if you're interested to come to the podcast, share your journey, or maybe share, or maybe conduct a workshop around any technical topic you wish to do that you can let us know. So I'll share the Google form as well. Yeah.
ADRIANA: Amazing. This is so great. Well, thank you Nancy, so much for geeking out with me today. Y'all don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check out the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media. Until next time...
NANCY: Peace out and geek out.
ADRIANA: Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who incidentally, designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingout.